Ukraine

pool_hustler

pool_hustler

D-rock said:
It does make you think, if nobody else in the world actually believes Russia when it says it's not directly and actively involved in Eastern Ukraine, just whom are they really lying to? The only real answer is there own people.
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yes, but how long and effectively can they sustain them?

from forbes.com

"Putin’s vulnerability is that he cannot tolerate substantial battlefield losses. His propaganda describes the Ukrainian conflict as a civil war fought by Ukrainians against Ukrainians. Of course, Putin’s media says, Russia is helping the “good side,” but there is no need for young Russian conscripts to die. Putin has gone to great lengths to cover up some two thousand or more casualties among Russian service men, but the loss of sons (in a country of one child families) cannot go unnoticed by their mothers, who form committees of mothers of soldiers, which Putin cannot brand as foreign agents."

Already there was a large protest march in Moscow (back in September).
Among the protesters some "carried pictures of Russian soldiers killed in Ukraine. In recent weeks, Russian independent media have reported on the growing number of soldiers who have gone missing after being deployed to eastern Ukraine, and secretive funerals have been held for some servicemen in places like the provincial city of Pskov."
 
MustBeGood

MustBeGood

D-rock said:
It does make you think, if nobody else in the world actually believes Russia when it says it's not directly and actively involved in Eastern Ukraine, just whom are they really lying to? The only real answer is there own people.
Click to expand...

It was a Russian made missile that brought down the Air Malaysia plane. I think the Russian army fired it.
 
MustBeGood

MustBeGood

Won't be a civil war soon.

Ukraine: Security deteriorating in rebel-held east
Associated Press By PETER LEONARD
12 hours ago

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Ukraine warned Thursday that the security situation is steadily worsening in the country's rebel-held east as separatist fighters move closer to government forces. One official said he feared an attack soon by Russian forces.

A cease-fire agreed upon in September between the pro-Russian rebels and Ukraine's government in Kiev has been violated daily, especially around areas coveted by both sides like the airport in the eastern city of Donetsk.

National Security and Defense Council spokesman Andriy Lysenko said the Russian army is massing troops, including air defense units, near the border. Ukraine for months has accused Russia of directly supplying the separatist forces.

Russian Foreign Ministry spokesman Alexander Lukashevich denied the Ukrainian charge.

"There have been and are no military movements across the border or, all the more, any presence of our troops in the southeast of Ukraine," he said Thursday in Moscow.

Ukraine's warnings of possible renewed hostilities follow multiple recent observations of large military convoys on the move around the country's eastern separatist-controlled areas. Trucks transporting troops, ammunition, fuel and large-caliber artillery systems have been seen traveling primarily in the direction of Donetsk, the main rebel-held city.

Ukraine and NATO have said they believe the equipment has been delivered from Russia, although they have yet to provide conclusive evidence for that.

Monitors from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe watching two Russian-Ukrainian border crossings have noted an increase in military-clad people traveling across the border in the past week.

"The (observer teams saw) 665 men and women in military-style dress crossing the border in both directions. This is the highest number observed so far," the OSCE said in a report Wednesday.

Its observer team saw a van Tuesday marked "Cargo 200" — the Russian military code for soldiers killed in action — crossing from Russia into Ukraine and returning later that same day.

Lysenko, the Ukrainian spokesman, said hostilities have surged in Luhansk, one of two regions bordering Russia where separatists have been waging battle for six months. Government positions in the area have come under repeated rebel rocket and artillery attacks in the last day, he said.

The Interfax-Ukraine news agency cited Zoryan Shkiryak, an adviser to Ukraine's Interior Minister, as saying Thursday that he anticipated an imminent attack by Russian forces.

"We can indubitably confirm that the probability of another incursion remains quite high and we should be ready for this," Shkiryak was quoted as saying.

Speculation about a planned separatist assault has been swirling in Ukrainian media following a news report citing unnamed rebel commanders as saying an offensive would begin Sunday.

Ukrainian authorities say residential areas are being increasingly targeted by rebel attacks. Two residents in Zolote, a village in the Luhansk region, were hospitalized with shrapnel wounds Wednesday, Lysenko said.

Officials in Kiev are particularly worried about Debaltseve, an eastern town on the main road linking Donetsk and Luhansk that is almost entirely surrounded by separatists. It has come under sustained shelling in the past few weeks.

Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko, who has pinned hopes for enforcing the truce on the OSCE monitors, handed over 10 armored vehicles to the group Thursday.

In addition to battling the rebels, Ukraine is struggling to spur its flagging economy and fight galloping inflation. The central bank said inflation has reached 19.8 percent this year and the national currency, the hryvnia, has lost 59 percent of its value against the dollar over the same period.
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D

D-rock

pool_hustler said:
yes, but how long and effectively can they sustain them?
Click to expand...

That might be something that will soon be irrelevant. The people in charge will have a good chance of having such a stranglehold over the populace by the time everybody catches on and complains there will be nothing they could do about it, and most will fall in line for not wanting to deal with the repercussions of doing otherwise.

Heck, we live in a country that as bad as it is still has much more freedom and transparency (That statement is damning with faint praise I know) and we are going to be nearing the point where the populace here won't be able to effectively change who controls us.
 
MustBeGood

MustBeGood

I think the Russians cleaned up evidence as now clean up on MH17 has started.

Work starts in Ukraine to collect wreckage of MH17

Associated Press By MSTYSLAV CHERNOV
5 hours ago

HRABOVE, Ukraine (AP) — Workers in rebel-controlled eastern Ukraine began to collect debris from the crash site of Malaysia Airlines Flight 17 on Sunday, four months after the plane was brought down.

The operation is being carried out under the supervision of Dutch investigators and officials from the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe. The recovered fragments are to be loaded onto trains and taken to the government-controlled eastern Ukrainian city of Kharkiv. The investigation into the cause of the crash is being conducted there and in the Netherlands.

Alexander Kostrubitsky, the head of the emergency services in the rebel-held areas of Donetsk region, said at the site that gathering debris could take around 10 days. The debris is being sawn into smaller pieces to facilitate its transportation, Kostrubitsky said.

All 298 people aboard the Boeing 777 flying from Amsterdam to Kuala Lumpur were killed when it was shot down July 17 over a rebel-held area. Charred remains of the aircraft are scattered around fields over an area of 8 square miles (20 square kilometers).

The first batch of plane debris was delivered from an area near the village of Hrabove to a lumber warehouse in the town of Torez shortly after lunchtime Sunday. They were due to be put onto cargo trains later in the day.

Efforts to conduct investigations and recovery operations have been delayed amid continued fighting between government troops and separatist fighters. A truce was agreed in September, but hostilities have raged on nonetheless.

Ukraine and the West have blamed the downing of the MH17 flight on Russia-backed separatists using a ground-to-air missile.

Russian state television has released a satellite photograph it claims shows that a Ukrainian fighter jet shot down Malaysia Airlines Flight 17. But the U.S. government dismissed the report as preposterous and online commentators called the photo a crude fake.

The photo released Friday by Russia's Channel One and Rossiya TV stations purportedly shows a Ukrainian fighter plane firing an air-to-air missile in the direction of the MH17. The channels said they got the photo from a Moscow-based organization, which had received it via email from man who identified himself as an aviation expert.

Several bloggers said the photograph was a forgery, citing a cloud pattern to prove the photo dates back to 2012, and several other details that seem incongruous.

Some saw the photo as a propaganda effort intended to deflect criticism over the tragedy that Russian President Vladimir Putin faced as he attended the Group of 20 summit in Brisbane, Australia.

Putin was the first leader to depart the summit Sunday. He told reporters that he left ahead of a final leaders' lunch because he wanted to rest before returning to work.

Australian Prime Minister Tony Abbott has been particularly strong-worded in his criticism of Russia since the Malaysia Airlines plane was shot down. Abbott said he and Putin had engaged in a "very robust" discussion about the situation in Ukraine.

"I utterly deplore what seems to be happening in eastern Ukraine," Abbott said. "I demand that Russia fully cooperate with the investigation, the criminal investigation of the downing of MH17, one of the most terrible atrocities of recent times."

Dutch authorities said in late October that 289 victims of the crash had been identified. They said work on concluding the identification process was hampered by lack of usable DNA profiles and because not all remains had been collected from the crash site.

At the wreckage site, Kostrubitsky said more bone fragments were discovered Sunday after part of the plane was lifted away.
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zeeblofowl_1969

zeeblofowl_1969

Pretty obvious that Putin is in the beginning of another Land grab most soulless dictators go along this path eventually it seems to be the way of the world.
 
S

spacearrow99

mhg23 said:
How to stop the war?
http://aillarionov.livejournal.com/761826.html
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Russia's tertiary education level is among has in the world. Putin's propaganda is for a segment, but majority of Russia's population is well educated. Most Russia's love Putin his family background (WWII) has much to do with his popularity. The Hitler comments about Putin enraged many of my Russian friends. The West can keep their current sanctions with Russia, but we cannot go to far with the sanctions. Russia is really to important and dangerous country to piss off. The Wes has talked much, but have done little to hurt Russia in the long run. Russia economy at worst will contract 1% next year which nothing in the grand scheme of things. China and India are not going to stop growing, so oil prices will return to normal once those economies, return to higher economic growth rates.
 
mikexmoran

mikexmoran

Supadupafly said:
Well said, VV! Do you guys know that the planeyards and the whole bureau complex where Antonov created not only he largest airplane in the world (Which is essential for the russian space program), but the workhorses that are the backbone of the russian system, in regards of air traffic etc.

If Florida would segregate from the USA, like Texas loves to threaten, would the US governemnt say, okay, we give up that state. Hell, no.

The Ukraine will eventually become russian again. It is only a matter of time.
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Yup. I'll claim a bit of ignorance and apathy on this. I get history is made up of winners and losers. The lines on the map have been redrawn in Europe so many times I certainly can't keep track. The Native Americans (Indians to fellow 'Muricans) claim this (The US) was their land. Yup, so was Mexico, Candada, etc. You lost. We treated you like crap. Sorry. So, sounds like some of that may be going on with the Ukraine.

Maybe I'm a horrible person, but my interest as a 'Murican is only to keep people from being slaughtered, feed them if needed, treat them medically if needed, and avoid another European conflict where we need to have our ('Murican) boys killed in another European cleanup operation. (All sarcasm intended. No Disrespect intended).

So, being less jingoistically silly. I agree, Supa.

D-rock said:
It does make you think, if nobody else in the world actually believes Russia when it says it's not directly and actively involved in Eastern Ukraine, just whom are they really lying to? The only real answer is there own people.
Click to expand...

Yes. Wouldn't be the first time the population was lied to. Putin has a Soviet pedigree.

zeeblofowl_1969 said:
Pretty obvious that Putin is in the beginning of another Land grab most soulless dictators go along this path eventually it seems to be the way of the world.
Click to expand...

Yup. See this link:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/parallels/...ols-joke-russians-petition-to-get-alaska-back

It isn't a joke. I wouldn't think it is a serious groundswell, but people get caught up in things, right?

It does bring a picture to my mind of Rocky III (or was it IV?) with Rocky saying "Go for it!"
 
bodie54

bodie54

spacearrow99 said:
The West can keep their current sanctions with Russia, but we cannot go to far with the sanctions. Russia is really to important and dangerous country to piss off. The Wes has talked much, but have done little to hurt Russia in the long run.
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Perhaps, although at least in the short to intermediate term things are getting a bit grim. 10.5 interest rates, the ruble falling 40percent in value in the last year. Low and falling oil prices and not a particularly diverse economy. Economic hardships along with Russian boys coming home in body bags would seem likely to undermine a good bit of that Putin popularity.
 
S

spacearrow99

bodie54 said:
Perhaps, although at least in the short to intermediate term things are getting a bit grim. 10.5 interest rates, the ruble falling 40percent in value in the last year. Low and falling oil prices and not a particularly diverse economy. Economic hardships along with Russian boys coming home in body bags would seem likely to undermine a good bit of that Putin popularity.
Click to expand...

Many currencies are fallen against the dollar. The Japanese yen has fallen 25% against the dollar this year. American shale oil has dumped to much oil on the market; oil prices have gone down as a result to an over supply oil in the world market. The Saudis are not cutting their supply; they want to bankrupt American shale producers. The Saudi are not targeting the Russians. Russia's Western Siberian oilfields have the lowest oil productions costs in the world, and the Russian government still has over 300 billion in foreign exchange reserves. Russia's oil economy is diverse, but the Russian government gets most of its taxes for the petroleum industry. I think 1 in 14 or 15 people pay taxes in Russia. Putin is the man who turned the Russian economy around, and the majority of people love the guy.
 
MustBeGood

MustBeGood

More Putin BS

As Ukraine truce holds, Russia vows economic pain

Associated Press By PETER LEONARD
7 minutes ago

KIEV, Ukraine (AP) — Fighting in eastern Ukraine between government troops and Russian-backed separatist forces has ground almost to halt. That should be good news for Ukraine, but Russia looks intent to pile on the economic misery.

In a detailed op-ed piece Monday, Russian Prime Minister Dmitry Medvedev painted a grim forecast of Russian economic blockades ahead as Ukraine embarks on closer integration with Europe.

"The Ukrainian government has made its choice. And even if our neighbors have a poor understanding of the ultimate price they will have to pay, that is their right," Medvedev said.

Those ominous words came as a renewed truce in east Ukraine called for by President Petro Poroshenko is holding — barring sporadic violations — since it began last week.

More than 4,700 people have been killed since the conflict broke out in mid-April, U.N. rights investigators estimate — and more than a quarter of those deaths came after a cease-fire in September that was routinely ignored.

Ukrainian authorities are hopeful, saying more peace talks are on the horizon.

The intensity of attacks on government-held areas has reduced notably and is now limited to mortar and small arms fire, military spokesman Andriy Lysenko said Monday. Separatists who have often accused government forces of breaking the truce agreed that violence has reduced dramatically.

Changes on the ground appear to reflect shifts on the diplomatic front.

While supporting the separatists, Moscow has said it accepts the rebellious east should remain part of Ukraine. Russian Foreign Minister Sergey Lavrov told the state news agency RIA-Novosti last week that pro-Russian separatists were prepared to re-enter a "common economic, humanitarian and political space" with Ukraine.

That position reflects the Kremlin's desire to maintain leverage over its neighbor as a means of keeping it from ever joining NATO.

Although the separatist leadership in Ukraine's eastern Donetsk and Luhansk regions publicly deny that they taking orders from Moscow, rebel officials privately concede the Kremlin plays a direct role in their decision-making. Lavrov's comments suggest an easing of staunch secessionist positions.

A few weeks ago, rebel leaders were vowing to expand the territory under their control. But last week, separatists in Luhansk made a show of withdrawing heavy weaponry from the front line.

The next expected development is a prisoner exchange, which a senior rebel leader in Donetsk, Alexander Khodakovsky, suggested Monday could begin on Dec. 25.

Poroshenko has expressed satisfaction with the reduced carnage.

"I positively assess the cease-fire regime. This has enabled the strengthening of Ukrainian positions and resupply of servicemen on the line of defense," he said.

But peace on the military front may serve only as prelude to economic hostility.

In his 5,600-word opinion piece Monday in the Moscow-based newspaper Nezavisimaya Gazeta, Medvedev outlined a new "pragmatic" chapter in relations with Ukraine.

"In plain Russian, dealing with Ukraine 'pragmatically' means giving it no quarter. Russia's economic approach to Ukraine will get tougher," Dmitry Trenin, who heads the Carnegie Moscow Center, wrote in a Twitter post.

Medvedev wrote that Ukraine has been unhealthily reliant on Moscow for too long; adding that as of last spring, Russian orders from Ukrainian companies were valued at $15 billion, or 8.3 percent of Ukraine's Gross Domestic Product.

"Nobody in Ukraine has explained to us, or themselves, how these orders will be replaced," he wrote.

Ukraine remains heavily dependent on Russian natural gas and industries in eastern Ukraine are still tightly intertwined with those in western Russia. Ukraine has had to go cap in hand to Russia recently for electricity supplies, as its power plants lack enough coal.

Medvedev also said a closer eye will be paid to Ukrainian citizens traveling to Russia for work — an ominous suggestion that this economic lifeline could be drastically tightened.

Ukrainian officials have put a brave face on those veiled threats.

"Everything that was possible to cut off has already been cut off by Russia," said Valeriy Chaliy, deputy head of the Ukrainian presidential administration.

He said Ukraine has been pressing hard to diversify the markets for its exports.

"Not all roads lead to Russia," Chaliy said. "Ukraine has other neighbors with which collaboration is possible without fear of getting stabbed in the back at any moment."

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden spoke by phone with Poroshenko on Monday to discuss "Ukraine's financial and energy situation and developments in eastern Ukraine," according to a readout released by Biden's office.

Biden said the United States remains committed to working with international partners "to ensure that Ukraine will have the macroeconomic support it needs" to implement its reform program.
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bahodeme

bahodeme

Closed Account
All this strife is causing difficulty in bringing Natalya over.
think_smiley_28.gif
 
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